Plato's Gorgias
The Gorgias consists
of
Socrates' conversations with Gorgias, Polus,
and Callicles. In increasing degrees of
vociferousness and bald-facedness, the three represent
the position that rhetoric is a powerful tool that
is morally neutral which should be used by those who
can merely because they can and because it helps
them fulfill their (apparent and occurrent) desires.
Those who have great power at rhetoric need not be
bound by conventions: they create them. Whether it is
right or wrong is beside the point for these three.
What is more, they are not primarily interested in
pursuing Socrates' quest for virtue: to them,
philosophy is just a way to hone skills at logic as a
tool of argument.
Socrates, on the other hand, holds
that philosophy consists of philosophical discussions
that aim at making progress towards finding the most
important things in life: what human excellence
consists of, how to care for one's soul. There is an
answer to that question, one answer, one answer for
all, thinks Socrates.
Those who do not know that 'answer' but wield rhetoric
as a powerful tool harm both others and themselves.
Thus although one might say that they engage in
politics, they do not engage in worthwhile or 'true'
politics, i.e. the caring for/improving a city full of
people. True politics consists in finding the
answers to Socrates' questions and having a rational
explanation for them, and then leading others to
understand them as well. Legislation and
court-justice can follow from such a rational
account, once it is found, which will result in
making others good (including citizens: hence 'true'
politics).
Socrates needs to show that one can be
mistaken in one's desires. In other words,
one can think that one wants X, but that is not really
the case. How can he possibly do that? Who is a better
judge of what I desire than I am? How could there be
such a better judge?
Socrates also maintains that power is not
power unless it is subject to justice! How
can that be?
Do we want whatever we think we want? Or rather,
should we make a distinction between things that we
think best at any given time and those that we really
want (all things considered)?
If we make that distinction, then power, as the
ability to do what we want, becomes a bit more
complicated. The question becomes: is it power to do
what I think I want or power to do what I want all
things considered? because the two may be disjunct.
George Rudebusch has written a book
Socrates, Pleasure, and Value (Oxford,
1999) that treats of these
questions, among others. Highlights of that book that
concern the Gorgias are as follows:
Socrates of the early dialogues seems to hold the
following contradictory beliefs:
- Virtue is the supreme good in life (Ap. and Cri.)
and: Pleasure is not the supreme good in life (Gorgias)
- Pleasure is the supreme good in life (Prot.).
Rudebusch's book argues as follows:
- "Socrates (in the Protagoras and Gorgias)
consistently and compellingly can speak of pleasure as the
good for human beings (chapters 3-5)." (7)
- "Socrates' hedonism can be interpreted to be a
compelling theory of modal, not sensate, pleasure (chapters
6-7)." (7)
- "Socrates (in the Apology, Crito, Gorgias, and
Republic I) consistently and compellingly can speak of
virtue as the good for human beings (chapters 8-9)." (7)
- Therefore, "Socrates of the Apology, Crito,
Protagoras, Gorgias and Republic I consistently
and compellingly can speak of pleasure and virtue as the good
for human being by identifying pleasant with virtuous activity
for a human being (chapter 10)." (7
Socrates' argument in the Protagoras
requires all pleasure to be commensurable:
the idea that there is a single standard of pleasure and pain is
called pleasure monism.
It is not plausible for sensate pleasures, says Rudebusch,
plausibly (how do I really compare the pleasure feeling of a
massage with that of hearing my favorite song?). Rudebusch will
argue that Socrates is not talking about sensate pleasures, but
rather another kind of pleasure (for which commensurability is
plausible?).
Polus' Position
- For any action or object, insofar as it appears to be
desirable for me, it really is desirable for me.
- For any psychological state of mind, insofar as it
appears to be a state of desiring, it really is that state of
desiring.
Those seem intuitively acceptable. Socrates rejects them both!
The reason for his rejection involves two distinctions:
- between intrinsic and extrinsic desirables, and
- between conditional and unconditional desiring.
The first distinction: an extrinsic
desirable is something that is desirable not for its own
sake, but because of something else. I desire to drink bad-tasting
medicine not for its own sake, but for the sake of health.
My desire to live well is an intrinsic
desire: I desire to live well for no further reason (if
you desire to live well to go to heaven, then substitute "go to
heaven" for "live well" and the argument works).
The desire for an extrinsic good is conditional: I desire extrinsic good X if and
only if it is in fact an extrinsic good for me. I.e. if X does
not in fact lead to the desired consequence, then I do not desire to
do it. What I thought I desired is not what I really desire.
If I am uncertain as to whether any given X will in fact lead to
the consequence I desire, I cannot say whether or not I desire it.
Extrinsic desire is not
consistent with the two claims which Polus' position makes, and
so not all my apparent desires are my real desires: I can be
mistaken about my desires. It may turn out to be the case
that any given apparent desire is not my real desire: when the
extrinsic good does not lead to some further good, I say that I did
not really desire it.
Callicles' position, however, is more complicated.
Callicles claims, namely, that he desires things intrinsically,
not extrinsically.
Callicles' position:
- Rational egoism: one
has reason/rationale to do something only insofar as it promotes
one's self-interest.
- Ethical egoism: one
has an ethical obligation to do something only insofar as it
promotes one's self-interest.
- Callicles' theory of
self-interest: one's life goes well only insofar as it
is filled with pleasure, which is identical to the satisfaction
of appetite. So self-interest
is filling one's life with pleasure, satisfying one's appetites.
Callicles' theory of pleasure
is not as clear. Rudebusch suggests four possibilities, the first
three of which he will reject:
- Prudential hedonism: maximization of pleasure
over the long-term.
- Indiscriminate hedonism: satisfy all
appetites.
- Sybaritic hedonism: satisfy bodily appetites.
- Satisfaction hedonism of felt
desire with respect to the intrinsically desirable:
this is the position Rudebusch will champion.
Rudebusch says that Callicles does not hold position 1, 2, or 3 for
the following reasons. That does not mean 1, 2, and 3 are
uninteresting: it just means that Callicles' statements show that he
does not hold one or more of them.
Position 1 above, prudential hedonism,
is interesting philosophically, but the 2 arguments Socrates makes
against Callicles simply do not affect it:
- The first of those arguments is an
argument from opposites. It involves
- a) the claim that goodness and badness
cannot both be present in the same respect at the same time:
if something is good in some respect at some time, then it
is good in that respect at that time and it is not bad in
that respect at that time, and it has no need for badness to
be present somehow too.
- b) Pleasure and pain, however, are different
in that the pleasure of satisfying an appetite requires the
pain of the appetite. Therefore
- c) pleasure and good are not the same.
- If Callicles were a prudential hedonist, he
would not worry about that argument: it simply would not
address his position.
- For the prudential hedonist thinks that
maximization of pleasure over the long term is good, not any
particular pleasure. So the prudential hedonist would agree
with Socrates that pleasure and the good are not the same
and that if something is good, it cannot also be bad, and
the argument would not fit the prudential hedonist.
- The prudential hedonist is indeed
interesting but she is not Callicles.
- The second argument against Callicles is the
pleased coward argument, which goes as follows.
- a) Bad people can feel as much pleasure as
good people in some circumstances (e.g. when danger passes
in war).
- b) That they feel as much pleasure as good
people does not make them good.
- But if experiencing pleasure is the good in
life, then it would make them (their life) good.
- c) Therefore, pleasure and goodness are not
the same.
- Once again, however, the argument does not
address prudential hedonism: the prudential hedonist can
easily grant that there are some occasions when the good and
the bad experience the same pleasure.
- What they cannot grant is that overall the
good and the bad experience the same amount of pleasure:
- their claim is that the good will experience
more pleasure over the whole course of their lifetimes.
- Thus this argument too misses the prudential
hedonist and since it is aimed at Callicles, it cannot be
that Callicles is a prudential hedonist.
So, the position which Plato is ascribing to
Callicles is not likely to be prudential hedonism.
What about sybaritic or indiscriminate hedonism?
The problem with these two varieties of hedonism is that they are
so obviously wrong that Socrates would be arguing against an
idiotic opinion. Why are they obviously wrong? Because it is
obvious that some desires and appetites clash with others and
simply trying to indiscriminately satisfy whatever the
occurrent desire of the moment is would be the life of a dog
with attention deficit disorder and really bad coordination, not
that of a rational human being. As to the sybaritic
hedonist, it seems obvious that there are many appetites and
desires that are not bodily, and dismissing them and their role in
the good life would be to relegate humans to the life of a really
dumb dog as well.
Another reason why 2 and 3 are not likely to be Callicles'
position is that Callicles clearly wants to value the powers of
tyrants and orators. These two sorts of people do not plausibly
seem to pursue things indiscriminately or to pursue only bodily
appetite satisfaction or desire fulfilment. Callicles admits that
there are pleasures that are not bodily: pleasures in honors,
possessions, and exercising power, and they all have
more-than-bodily components and they all require
non-indiscriminate behavior.
Stimulation and Satisfaction
Modern hedonistic discussions distinguish between stimulation hedonism and satisfaction hedonism.
Stimulation hedonism has to do with the sensations of a particular feeling. But that
excludes things like the pleasure of solving a math problem, the
pleasure of knowing one's friend is happy, etc. So it's not an
attractive way to define pleasure.
Satisfaction hedonism holds that pleasure is the satisfaction of desire. But that
is too narrow as well: what desire am I satisfying when I suddenly
smell something good? None: I had no occurrent desire to do so, and
yet I still experience something I would call pleasure.
But maybe pleasure is a disjunctive:
it is either one of the two. That is still too narrow: I felt no
antecedent desire to have a friend call, but I am still pleased, and
that is neither because of a satisfied desire nor because of
sense-stimulation.
Whether pleasure really is sense-stimulation and desire-satisfaction
or not, Callicles is talking about
desire-satisfaction. Callicles
identifies
pain with desire (494b1 and 496d4). Callicles' way of
speaking about pleasure and pain is at odds with ordinary usage, but
that does not make his theory wrong.
If you are inclined to say that some desires are pleasurable,
Callicles could reply that you are confused: you are mistaking
your anticipation of fulfilment of the desire with the desire
itself. If you claim that there is pleasure in being sexually
aroused, for instance, whether or not it is fulfilled, once again
you are confused: you are confusing the pleasure of titillation
with the desire itself. Being titillated is not painful nor is it
an appetite.
For Callicles, one must let one's appetites grow as large as
possible and must fulfill them if one is good (491e-492a).
The Calliclean hero
(Calliclean good person), will manage appetites (i.e. if that person
cannot eat all day, that person will allow their hunger to grow to
huge proportions and hence will satisfy a larger desire: at some
point, this breaks down, however, and the person will not push to
the point of starvation, for that will stymie other desires).
For Callicles to consistently praise the orator and the tyrant, he
needs to be a felt desire hedonist. True desires
require knowledge, and Callicles does not want to require knowledge,
whereas felt desires do not, and being a tyrant or orator
does not. He also needs that felt desire to be for intrinsically
desirable things, otherwise, he will be vulnerable to the argument
that defeated Polus. For
Callicles, however, there is a faculty in humans that can make
anything intrinsically desirable.
Socrates does not try to show us that the life of the orator or
tyrant is not full of satisfaction of felt desires. He does show
(see chapter 5), that satisfying Callicles' felt desires does not
give us what is intrinsically desirable.
Callicles' position has great appeal. Gyges' ring (Republic
359c-360d). Why would the person with the power to satisfy their
felt desires be mistaken?
At issue are a variation of the claims Polus made:
- For any action or object, insofar as it appears to be
desirable for me, it is intrinsically desirable for me.
- this is the mechanism that makes any desire into an
intrinsic desire
- For any psychological state of mind, insofar as it
appears to be a state of desiring, it is an unconditional
desire of mine.
- this removes the thorn of the argument about
conditional desires that got Polus above.
Callicles is committed to an identity thesis: the good is none other
than the pleasant. I.e. the intrinsically desirable is none other
than the satisfying of appetite. Socrates will try to refute that
claim with two arguments (497a4-5 and d5-8 and 499a7-d1).
Rudebusch is addressing a position that he attributes to Callicles
and thinks that Socrates refutes. That position is rational and
ethical egoism (see chapter 4). That position is also the hedonist
position that there is nothing of intrinsic value but the experience
of satisfying felt appetites: the larger and more intense the
appetite, the greater the value of its satisfaction. That position
is interesting in just the way that a philosopher wants a position
to be interesting: it is plausible enough and many people seem to
hold it.
Along the way, Rudebusch makes the astonishing claim on page 58
that Socrates in Plato's early dialogues should not be taken to be
trying to produce sound and valid arguments. Nor should he be
taken to be trying to refute his interlocutor by any means, which
would be sophistry. Rather, he is engaging in pedagogy: he is
trying to foster understanding. Often enough, sound and valid
arguments produce understanding, and so pedagogy and producing
sound and valid arguments usually coincide. BUT what Rudebusch
presumably gains from his astonishing claim is a relaxation of the
demand that Socrates' arguments always be sound and valid: if they
provoke understanding, that suffices. I wish Rudebusch had said
more about what he takes understanding to be (for instance, does
it include sound and valid argumentation?).
Rudebusch examines two arguments in the two main parts of this
chapter:
- The argument "from opposites" Grg. 495e-497d
- The pleased coward argument Grg. 497d-499a
The Argument from Opposites
The aim of the argument is to determine whether the good and
pleasure are identical. If they are not, Calliclean hedonism is
wrong.
The argument Socrates makes claims:
- The good (the intrinsically desirable) and the bad are
(opposites and hence are) mutually exclusive and jointly
exhaustive in a subject.(495e-496b establishes this via pairs
such as doing well/doing poorly, which Callicles accepts)
- Pleasure (satisfying the appetite) and pain (the appetite) are
not mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive in a subject
(496c-e establishes this claim via thirst/drinking-when-thirsty:
those two are neither mutually exclusive nor jointly exhaustive:
they are, however, Callicles' examples of pain and pleasure).
It might seem as if Socrates can conclude from 1 and 2 that
therefore pleasure is not the good, as he apparently does at 497a.
That would be invalid.
1 and 2 only show that the pair good/bad and pleasure/pain are
not identical pairs. It does not necessarily show that good is not
pleasure.
AND YET, it is clear that Socrates thinks that he has, in this
argument, identified a way that the good is distinguished from
pleasure.
He is entitled to that conclusion as follows:
- Drinking-when-thirsty has an OPPOSITE of sorts:
not-drinking-when-thirsty. But those are not jointly exhaustive,
for there is drinking-when-not-thirsty and
not-drinking-when-not-thirsty.
- If pleasure and the good were identical, there would be the
same sorts of opposites for both of them, but there are not.
Rudebusch offers another argument that I don't entirely
understand. The essence of the argument is that you cannot
satisfy an appetite unless you have the appetite: pain
(appetite) is a requisite for pleasure (appetite-satisfaction),
but desire for the good (i.e. desire for the intrinsically
desirable) is not a requisite for desire-fulfilment (i.e.
fulfilling the desire for the intrinsically desirable).
The argument from pleased cowards
I cannot fully see how Rudebusch's argument works here.
That does not necessarily mean it does not work.
Callicles claims that 1) A MAN IS TRULY GOOD (AS OPPOSED TO
CONVENTIONALLY GOOD) INSOFAR AS HE CONTINUALLY SATISFIES LARGE AND
INTENSE APPETITES. and that 2) A MAN LEADS A GOOD LIFE BY CREATING
AND SATISFYING LARGE AND INTENSE APPETITES (491E-492A)
As counterexamples, Socrates proposes that we consider that man
who continually makes himself itchy as hell and continually
scratches himself as much as possible: huge desires and huge
satisfactions that continually grow in a kind of itchy spiral.
Callicles agrees that he is not a good man. Socrates also offers
the catamite (a "bottom" in modern slang), who continually creates
the desire to be penetrated and freely has that desire fulfilled
(494c-e).This shows something about attitudes toward sexuality: it
is offensive and I do not condone it, but it is in the text and
interesting: perhaps we could update Socrates with an example we
would not find offensive: examples abound, but I don't want to get
into specifics of these sordid topics. Maybe serial murdering is
safe enough?
These counterexamples are supposed to establish: 1a) THERE IS A
MAN WHO CONTINUALLY SATISFIES LARGE AND INTENSE APPETITES BUT IS
NOT TRULY GOOD. and 2a) THERE IS A MAN WHO CREATES AND SATISFIES
LARGE AND INTENSE APPETITES AND WHO DOES NOT LIVE A GOOD LIFE.
It seems to me that Callicles reacts to the counterexamples by
saying he thinks they are repulsive but nonetheless accepting that
the scratcher and the "bottom" are good and live good lives
(494e-495a). I.e. he rejects 1a and 2a. Rudebusch thinks that
Socrates' examples are sufficient to disprove 1 and 2 (but offers
little argument on this point-P. 61).
In any case, Callicles persists in identifying the good with the
pleasurable, i.e. the intrinsically desirable with the satisfying
of appetite.
Callicles and Socrates agree that the intrinsically desirable is
being good and living well.
5. 3 The Results of the Argument with Callicles
Although not all of Rudebusch's arguments work, as I read them,
nonetheless, at least one argument works, as I read it, that shows
that the good and pleasure are not identical. By the good and
pleasure, I mean the good and pleasure in Callicles' terms: the
good as the intrinsically good and pleasure as
appetite-satisfaction.
Rudebusch points out that most people think Callicles is
wrong because he is a hedonist: he is wrong because, since some
vicious people take pleasure in vicious acts, it cannot be the
case that the good is pleasure. They think that hedonism
combined with protagoreanism about commensurability of desire
and pleasure make Callicles wrong.
Rudebusch thinks that Socrates is a hedonist and that his
hedonism is right, but Rudebusch thinks that Socrates rejects
Protagoreanism about desire and pleasure and is right about that
too: people can be mistaken about their pleasure and their
desire, and some pleasures are different from other pleasures
(you'll have to read Rudebusch to discover the details of how
that is cashed out).
5.4 Summary
- Socrates', Polus', and Callicles' position: The best life is
spent in getting what one desires.
- Polus' interpretation: the best life is spent in getting what
seems best.
- Callicles' interpretation: The best life is spent in
satisfying appetites.
Socrates does not argue against 1, but he does argue against 2 and
3, in the Gorgias. 1 is consistent with the scientific
hedonism which Socrates lays out in the Protagoras.